The day after the murder of Keith Dressel…
It’s hard to know how to blog this, every media source has stories on what happened outlining more information about about Toledo police detective Keith Dressel and a summary of the events as well as memorial fund information. Toledo Mayor Carty Finkbeiner’s statement was put here on the blog by Brian Schwartz and is also in the media. The media is also focusing on Robert Jobe and Sherman Powell, Powell’s mother is stating that she believes her son was abused by police with chipped teeth and bruises on his face. Roberta de Boer provides a deeper look into yesterday…
The blame game is starting already, NBC24 had Video of Jobe’s girlfriend’s thoughts on the shooting, claiming he was the product of the North End neighborhood. A Toledo Blade editorial blames the justice system. It’s been said by many that Jobe’s mother was trying but the questions will arise as to could she have prevented this, and what about the Education System? Should a 15 year old on probation be able to miss every day but two from January 25th and still be “within a week” of being reported for truancy? Questions have already been risen as to had Keith Dressel been wearing a bullet proof vest he would most likley still be alive today. People are talking about how there is nothing in that neighborhood for teens, similar to the discussion that happened after the riots when that was the focus. For me even as a parent of children who are not perfect, it’s hard to not be judgemental, a 15 year old on probation should have been closely monitored and should not have been out at 2:00 a.m. We all know that but we can’t undo what has happened.
So, I really don’t know how to blog this at this point other than just try to provide what’s being written and said…
It is hard to decide how to feel about this. I have my own reservations because of the fact that I did live in that area for a few years, I know what it’s like for teens, and people are right, there is nothing for teens to do to try and keep out of trouble unless the go to church or the YMCA. There is also the side that his parent(s) should have been more involved, but as a parent myself I know that there is only so much you can do, the rest is up to the child. I personally feel that with the info that is coming out about this child and the “record” that he has built up in the last 6 or so months, this child should not have been on the streets. Maybe that’s a bit crass, but his crimes have increased and it appears as if this would have ultimately happened anyway. As a parent of a child only one year younger than the child that took this officers life it saddens me to know that not only did he take the life of another person, but he also ruined his own life, as well as many other people who were involved or knew him and the lives of the officers family and friends. The prison system will not change him, that’s a fact that is proven over and over again. My only hope is that this will be a pivoting moment in other childrens lives who are close to the “edge” and they will realize that this is not the life they truly want for themselves.
February 22nd, 2007 at 9:50 amUnfortunately though if the justification that this was somehow not Jobe’s fault that he is the product of his neighborhood is the one his friends believe, then it’s doubtful anything will change. No matter where you live, no matter what you have to go thru, the ultimate responsibility as far as the choices made are yours. Quite a few of us know sometimes life isn’t fair but we have the choice as to will we let it destroy us and those around us or try to aim for a better place…While at 15 I really have to question should he be tried as an adult and should he face the death penalty as some have suggested, it’s obvious if he is found guilty of this that he has to face the consequences of that most likely one quick thoughtless act that changed so many lives.
The ease of which these kids have access to guns is a problem and it’s one that needs to be addressed. They are getting them from somewhere and stopping that could very well be the key to at least reducing some of the deaths…I’m not suggesting taking guns away from those who have them legally but it’s obvious there is a problem with illegal guns.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:01 amThe recent press conference conveys that Robert Jobe has confessed to shooting Det. Dressel at point blank range after the detective tried to grab his clothing during the chase. The gun has (reportedly) been recovered and is being tested.
The certification process is under way to have Jobe classified as an adult for trial. Under the statutes currently in place Robert Jobe, if classified as an adult, cannot receive the death penalty due to the crime occuring as a juvenile. His trial would be conducted as an adult and his maximum penalty would be life in prison.
The issue of ’second hand guns’ is a universal one. It bears much review and serious consequences for those that participate in supplying America’s young with firepower. Quite honestly, that effort will require the active participation of ALL OF US, not just a few. It will require logic, balanced thought, consideration of all the factors, and a willingness to stand by our ideals.
As for nothing for teens to do in North Toledo………there are things for them to do. There are places for them to go. The churches have programs, the Friendly Center is available, the YMCA is available, and there may well be other options to surface soon.
We are all products of our environment – and thankfully the majority of us have chosen a positive direction. But we all know that bad news sells. There are many times that media involvement in the POSITIVE activities in North Toledo has been requested. The participation on behalf of the media in that effort has been minimal at best. But let something bad happen and they will all have time to show up and cover it. It’s pandering to morbid curiosity. Pure and simple.
I am issuing an open challenge to any and all media folks that read these blogs to encourage their programming directors and assignment editors to place equal importance on the positive things that take place in North Toledo – and all over the city for that matter.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:21 amI don’t understand this “there is nothing for teens in the neigbhorhood” complaint. I grew up in an affluent suburban neighborhood and you know what, we had nothing for teens either! What did we do after school? I worked at Burger King, we played basketball in each other’s driveways, we did our homework, we had a band, we played video games, we hung out and talked, we rode bicycles, we played high school sports, we watched movies. Somehow we didn’t end up in trouble with the law despite the fact that we had no YMCA, no youth center, no community activity center. Saying there is “nothing for teens to do to try and keep out of trouble unless the go to church or the YMCA” is just baloney.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:25 amI agree the issue of second hand guns is one that will take all of us and it’s one that comes up when something like this happens and then is not pushed.
I can’t control any aspect of the media beyond this blog but I will if given information on the “good news” be more than willing to blog about it.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:26 amHear! Hear!
“I am issuing an open challenge to any and all media folks that read these blogs to encourage their programming directors and assignment editors to place equal importance on the positive things that take place in North Toledo – and all over the city for that matter.”
And we should call on the city and civic leaders to showcase the positives in the area and the city and make the places known to those that need to know.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:27 amDave,
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:46 amThank you for focusing on just that one brief sentence, yes, it is baloney, I agree 100% but the fact is that in that specific neighborhood, unless you are involved in something that takes you away from the lifestyle or you have parents or family members that are completely involved in your life, this is the way your life is going to end up. It’s a fact of life for parents of today’s teens that if you are not involved in their lives and helping them make positive choices for their lives that they can get sucked into a negative type of life style. I have 1 teen and one tween, and I am completely involved in their lives, I was even when we lived in that area, but I am very old fashioned in my beliefs as a parent. I seen too many children, from very young ages to almost adults, who were totally unsupervised and could do what they wanted to do when they wanted to do it. This is true for more areas than just the north Toledo area. If parents don’t get more involved in their childrens lives then they have no one to blame but themselves. No, not all children with involved parents get through life without some type of legal problem, but the chances are much slimmer for those that do. It makes me angry when I hear parents defend their children for their wrong doings, let the children take the punishment that is given them and learn a lesson. But today’s legal system is all about putting the blame elsewhere, I know it first hand because I had a loved one who made a mistake, ‘fessed up to that mistake and literally had the book thrown at them, yet I see people who commit much worse crimes and attempt to put the blame elsewhere and end up with a slap on the wrist. Our justice system has some serious problems, but if parents and people involved in young peoples lives don’t teach these children to admit to their mistakes and take the punishment they deserve then the system will keep on going as it is. I’m not bitter about what happened to my loved one, I’m just completely dumbfounded when I watch the news. We all need to learn that we make mistakes, sometimes they work out for the best, sometimes we have to pay the price, it’s part of life, no one is perfect, but the more we demand that people be perfect then the more people will continue to blame everyone but themselves for the mistakes they make!
Holly I wasn’t just focusing on one sentence you wrote, it’s been written and said over and over again, especially after the riots. I think we both agree that putting up some huge community center with ping pong tables and internet access is not the answer.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:52 amDave,
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:57 amyou are right 100%!! Sorry if I said anything that offended.
“I think we both agree that putting up some huge community center with ping pong tables and internet access is not the answer.”
Suggestions?
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:02 amOK, since I’m on a roll here, I’m going to add something else that I feel is the downfall of this specific North Toledo neighborhood, as well as other areas in Toledo.
When we lived there there was a specific rental company (that I shall leave nameless) that owned the vast majority of the property around ours. I would report illegal things that happened to said rental company as well as offer evidence, and they would continue to say that there was nothing they could do. Said company even drove their vehicle through my yard with a snow plow on it so that they could snow plow the snow off the sidewalks rather than shovel or use a snow thrower to take care of it. I had pictures and video of this happening, but once again, nothing could or would be done.
My point is that if there were actual landlords who cared rather than slumlords who only were out for the money, maybe it wouldn’t be so bad. But when you have a slumlord who is knowingly allowing drug and illegal activity happen on their property without doing something to stop it, then I think there lies a part of the problem.
It goes back to good harbors good and bad harbors bad, we are all a product of our environment, but we are responsible for the choices we make. Would you purposely let your life or your childs life revolve around someone or something that you know will in the end cause you harm? I doubt it. But when a parent or care giver allows a child to do as they want because it is “easier” rather than standing up to that child and telling them NO, that’s where the problems start. Heck, I’ve done it myself simply because I’m tired of the argument, and in the end I knew that I had done wrong for my child and myself. It’s too easy today to do what is convenient rather than what is right!
Thus the reason why we have slumlords that are continuing to allow illegal activity happen on their properties. My thought is if it happens once, give them a warning, if it happens twice, fine them, but if it happens a third time, take away their property and let someone who gives a damn buy it and do something with it. Stop letting these huge rental companies buy up an entire neighborhood only to sit back and allow it to go down the tubes because of the illegal activity they are sitting back and allowing to happen just so that they can make a buck!
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:11 am“OK, since I’m on a roll here,”
Great comments, keep going……..
“I would report illegal things that happened to said rental company as well as offer evidence, and they would continue to say that there was nothing they could do.”
Of course not, as it would infringe on their bottomline.
“But when you have a slumlord who is knowingly allowing drug and illegal activity happen on their property without doing something to stop it, then I think there lies a part of the problem.”
Yes, the major part of the problem.
“Stop letting these huge rental companies buy up an entire neighborhood only to sit back and allow it to go down the tubes because of the illegal activity they are sitting back and allowing to happen just so that they can make a buck!”
Or at least force the city to regulate and take notice of the activities.
For me it is a one, two three step.
One; I notify the landlord. Two; I notify the city Three: repeat One and Two till something is done.
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:43 amThanks NC! I’m not a very vocal person, but I’m a firm believer in the old saying “If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime”, but I apply that to MANY things other than illegal activities. As a parent I’ve said it to my kids when one is ticked off at the other for reacting to something they’ve done.
Too many people today are too “sensitive”. If you don’t like something someone says or does to you think about 2 things: 1). Did you say or do anything to cause what happened? 2). Could you have removed yourself from the situation so that it didn’t bother or affect you? If you answered yes to either of them then the problem is yours, and you have to deal with it and move on rather than blaming someone else.
We, as adults, set the example for the generation(s) that follow us. If we come across as “It’s my way or the highway”, then that’s what those looking up to us will do also. But if we come across as a human being who admits to our mistakes but learns from them, then that is the example we are teaching. Kids learn from what they see, plain and simple. If they are constantly seeing people breaking the law and doing what they want to do with no concern for the people around them, then they in turn will do the same. But if they see people trying to do what is right and living decent and hard working lives, they will learn from that and try to do the same. It is so much easier to do what is easier than it is to do what is hard and change things, and we all know that kids want to do things the easier way.
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:58 am“Kids learn from what they see, plain and simple. If they are constantly seeing people breaking the law and doing what they want to do with no concern for the people around them, then they in turn will do the same.”
Break the cycle and turn the eyes in a different direction.
Excellent thoughts and comments.
Holly you are from N.Y.C.?
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:17 pmNope, I’m from around here. I grew up just across the border in Michigan and transplanted myself in the Toledo area 11 years ago.
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:23 pmJobe just turned 15 earlier this month. I wonder if he can, in good conscience, be deemed an adult for purposes of trial. I think the desire to so designate him is prompted by the seriousness of the crime, and that alone. I doubt many would look at him and see an adult.
As a parent I know how impossible it can be to police a child 24/7, but I do have to wonder why the charge against Jobe in the past for having a concealed weapon (a .22) was a misdemeanor. He would have been 14 then. What happened in that case? Was the source of the gun traced? Were there charges against a third party?
And wasn’t this kid under electronic monitoring? If so, why was he able to be out roaming the area at 2am?
I have to admit that I feel sorry for kids growing up in areas where the streets are so often crime scenes, where there’s little prospect for opportunities in the immediate area (i.e. the very place they call home), and there’s easy access to peer groups with the same sad futures looming before them. It’s easy to blame the parents, but it’s also easy to overlook the fact that these many of these parents are trapped by their circumstances in the same ways the kids are. It’s a pervasive problem that stretches backward for years, and promises to stretch forward for many more years. I don’t know how we go about changing the environment in any meaningful way when so many things are at work: drugs, education, opportunities, neighborhood decay, cultural decay, availability of guns, etc. You might improve one part of the equation only to see another worsen. It’s a huge set of problems and the only way I’ve seen improvements in neighborhoods elsewhere is via gentrification — but that merely moves those without resources to another neighborhood, taking with them all the problems that destroyed their previous neighborhood.
I just don’t see much good ahead for the north or east sides of our city. For the Marina District to succceed, I’d advise the powers that be in our city to do something about the steady growth in crime, drugs, guns, prostitution, and property rot in the adjacent neighborhood.
I’d like to know if crime rates changed in those areas out Lagrange Street that were improved, physically. I know things are still pretty bad closer in, toward Summit. My curiosity stems from my wondering if pride in property alone can help. Does seeing the city and feds care (the proof in funding for improved building fronts and sidewalks) make any difference in the crime rate?
I visited Jobe’s MySpace page last night. He said what he was looking for was someone who’d stick by him through thick and thin. I wonder if, when he wrote that, he knew how thin things could get.
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:51 pmA 15-year-old with a criminal history gets his hands on a gun and is out on the streets at 2 a.m. and everyone is wondering who is to blame? Really, this was bound to end badly any way you look at it.
No one should blame this on his neighborhood or the lack of things for teens to do in the city. At 2 a.m., 15-year-olds should be at home in bed, NOT standing on darkened street corners with a gun in their pocket.
So it begs the question – where the heck were his parents? Why didn’t anyone take responsibility for this teenager and keep him under lock and key before he got his hands on a gun and killed a police officer?
I guess though, the adults are only partially to blame. It really comes down to this – the 15-year-old pulled the trigger. He is ultimately responsible for his own actions. No one can tell me that he didn’t understand what would happen when he fired his weapon.
No matter how we look at it, lives have been lost and lives have been wasted and no amount of finger pointing will bring anyone back.
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:07 pmT.L., I think everyone here understands that Jobe is responsible for having a gun, being on the streets at 2am, and pulling the trigger. The discussion, at least to my eye, is about what led to his being in that situation. The answer is both easy and extremely complex.
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:16 pmAfter reading all of your comments, I’ll just keep mine to myself.
Lisa’s blog is no place for me to incite a flame war with my strong opinions.
For once, I am going to keep my mouth shut, except maybe on my own turf.
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:19 pmHooda, I don’t think you would incite a flame war because even if people disagree with you, it’s still your thoughts. That said, I respect your opinion either way.
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:22 pmHooda, I want to know your views. Where’s your site?
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:26 pmIt’s on the sidebar – Hooda Thunkit
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:29 pmThanks, LisaRenee. I ended up finding it by just clicking on Hooda’s name in Hooda’s post. There’s nothing posted over there yet about this topic. Hooda sure does know how to whet a person’s interest.
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:41 pmYou’re welcome and yes, I headed over to see if he had posted too.
February 22nd, 2007 at 3:07 pmThere is evil in this world. Maybe Jobe is just an evil human being, plain and simple. The vast majority of kids in Jobe’s neigborhood do not turn out to be criminals. Fortunately he will spend the rest of his life behind bars.
February 22nd, 2007 at 3:13 pmLisa – thanks for that offer, and I (we) will be taking you up on it – very soon.
WE – all of us – have pointed the finger at many people and many ‘reasons’ as to why this happened. It’s a moot point at this time. The fact is it DID happen.
Parents cannot stay awake 24/7 to watch a child and make sure they don’t stray. They can only hope that they have instilled solid values in that child and nurture them into thinking/thoughtful beings that can, and do, distinguish between right and wrong. And sometimes even that isn’t enough.
If Jobe’s mother was to have placed bars on the windows and a padlock on his bedroom door she would have been arrested for false imprisonment and endangering. Since she couldn’t do that and had to sleep at some time then she is responsible there too. It’s a horrible, never-ending circle that creates a dilemma that generations have not been able to figure out nor control.
The amount of loss in this whole situation is baffling. A man went to work expecting to go home when his shift was done – he didn’t. A young man thought he was going to outsmart the world – he didn’t. There are no winners in this – only losers.
Had this shooting been the response of a young person that panicked, then it might be easier to TRY to understand. But this was carried out with intent and purpose – as was relayed by Chief Navarre’s press conference this morning. The kid had the opportunity to keep running, but when Det. Dressel grabbed the edge of the kids’ clothes he pulled out his gun and shot – point blank. This action forged a place for this young man in the “bad boy association” that exists in even the priciest neighborhoods. Financial status or place of residence does not define boundaries for violence, dysfunctional families, or kids with enough emotional baggage to sink a ship. Our young people are vulnerable, they are impressionable, and they are (for the most part) willing to TRY to do the right thing by society’s standards. We only truly hear about the ones that have gotten caught in an emotional crossfire that renders them incapable of making sound choices and sound decisions.
I don’t have children of my own, so I can’t say whether it’s easy or not. I would venture to say it’s not, but for those that have their own children I’m sure they will say it’s worth the work. But I DO believe that I have just as much of a vested interest in the kids of this city as any natural born parent.
February 22nd, 2007 at 4:55 pmI have five and it is difficult at times, a tiny bit easier now that most of them are grown but even when you think you are trying to be a good parent things happen. Then you wonder, could I have prevented this, there is such a fine line between letting them learn by their own mistakes and not watching them destroy their lives.
I agree placing blame is not going to change anything unless and this is the big “unless” it’s done in a manner to try to prevent this in the future. Learning from the mistakes that were made and trying to move forward so that perhaps the next Jobe can be stopped/helped before things get to this drastic of a point. I’d suggest starting with looking at the system of truancy and probation. While going to school isn’t going to prevent all of it, chances are if a teen has to be in school early in the morning it does reduce their being out at 2:00 a.m. A youth on probation should not be able to go that long without attending school.
February 22nd, 2007 at 5:04 pmCarol, you wrote: “Financial status or place of residence does not define boundaries for violence, dysfunctional families, or kids with enough emotional baggage to sink a ship.”
While that’s true in a literal sense, surely you know that a family’s resources and where they live (which determines the kid’s schooling, social life, and aesthetic landscape) goes a long way toward defining that child’s opportunities in this world.
If we could stop and search every kid in Toledo and then separate the ones who are found with guns according to where they live, I’d bet the ranch that we’d see some correlation between socio-economic status and a kid’s propensity for carrying a gun. I have no research on which to base that bet, but I do have some common sense.
February 22nd, 2007 at 5:30 pm“The blame game is starting already, NBC24 had Video of Jobe’s girlfriend’s thoughts on the shooting, claiming he was the product of the North End neighborhood.”
I didn’t pay much attention to this paragraph till this evening.
It serves little to categorize the twist and turns of an event, that is obviously an emotional one, with such phrasing. Sure people say things in an emotional state and if we take them at face value we do ourselves a disservice as well as the reporting with phrases like that.
February 22nd, 2007 at 8:00 pmHere’s an interesting exchange Jobe had with a woman on MySpace.com (the first remark is what the woman posted on Jobe’s site, the second is one he posted two minutes later on her site in response):
kelly Feb 6 2007 2:02P
hi my son yes you are my real son i love you and miss you be good or ill have to come back tto toledo and kick your ass love mom
Feb 6 2007 2:04P
I’m always going to be good…unless someone makes me go crazy on them.
February 22nd, 2007 at 9:27 pmB.White
That is the way the comment was phrased NC. While of course emotions run high, I felt it was relevant since this was stated publicy and taken with some of the other comments it should be linked.
Anonymous, I haven’t searched out or visited his MySpace or the woman who I’m guessing was his real mother or at least was stating to be on MySpace.
February 22nd, 2007 at 9:41 pmI didn’t think she was really his Mom. I thought she was just expressing her feeling toward him. This is something else he posted on her site (just a few minutes before posting what I showed you in my previous message):
Feb 6 2007 1:59P
sup Mom I see you get alot of that here…but they don’t know I’m your REAL Son just got adopted when you moved… I miss yall you already know and I get off my anckle monitor sooner then what I thaught…I get off it on the 9th and they got me on Propation till I’m 18 but in 9months I won’t have to drop or go see him so thats a plus. Hit me up Mom.Love ya
___
I’ve been trying to follow the various links from one page to another but not getting much information. However there are a couple of people wanting to free Sherman Powell. One of those people has his page set to private; another’s is public … he’s from Sylvania. Powell has a page, but not much on it.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:09 pmAs a member of the system some 25 years ago, I can tell you from experence and result that not everybody that comes from that environment fails.
The one word that eludes everybody with this fiasco is “respect”. There was none.
As big a punk as I was growing up, I only respected two sets of people, my parents because they instilled “the fear”, and the police because they were the police. There were no teachers to reinforce respect, even back then. It wasn’t until I was 17 when one of the five most impressionable people I’ve held respect for, Dan Streeter, gave me 3 whacks with a paddle for stealing his “pre-signed hall passes” and handing them out to my friends before I realized it was time to grow up. Dan was a “subsitute teacher” and soccer coach back then.
What would be labelled today as child abuse, my parents instilled a moral thread that I would never cross. Most of my respectable manners I carry with me today was from that phase in my life, but I was still slinging weed and I hauled an uzi in the pocket of the seat behind my passenger seat. I still committed crime, and I did get caught three times during my juvenile campaign. When the police brought me home, the only words that come from my mother’s mouth was “Take him away, he’s not welcome here.” When I sat in CSI, I sat there for two days until my father collected me. I was not coddled nor was I ignored, but I will say I learned some valuable education on how to avoid these situations.
I look at my neighborhood today and I am disgusted. Chase and Ohio Streets once thrived with neighbors that BBQed together, drank beers on the weekends in the streets till dawn, watched each others kids and watched each others kids fight each other, then an hour later be playing “Star Wars” on the picnic bench out back.
Today, the kids do not have “the fear”. That is the problem. There’s no fear of reprisals, there’s no fear of your parents and obviously in Jobe’s life, no fear of the police. My old neighborhood has gone to shit, 8 people killed within 1/8 mile from my old house in the last 2 years alone and enough vacant lots to make 5 football stadiums.
Solution? Thre is none. Laws are in place today which prevent a parent from disiplining a child correctly. Avenues which allow a child to prosper without being involved in crime are non-existant. There’s seven days in a week and based on experenced, I cannot recall any event that would pre-occupy me longer than a day.
So in my eyes, if you want a solution to the youth of today, find Dan Streeter, or a educator that has established relationships with the children in the community. They have the answers.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:57 am“That is the way the comment was phrased NC. While of course emotions run high, I felt it was relevant since this was stated publicly and taken with some of the other comments it should be linked.”
My comment was not about what you posted. It was the reporters choice to state the obvious and my thought was and is, it does what to help?
And there are very good postings from people expressing their thoughts and remembrances of the city and I hope that those that are in a position of leadership and authority are read and thinking about what citizens are writing at a time like this.
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:32 amBrian,
Well put. My comments over on RWT are similar. Until we change the way we deal with juvenile miscreants, we can expect more of this type of incidents in Toledo, and the country as a whole.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:02 am“Laws are in place today which prevent a parent from disciplining a child correctly.”
Can someone point me to these laws, please.
I have had conversations with people in person who claim that people have been hauled to jail as “they spanked their child” and yet I can find no laws that forbade spanking or court cases that deal with “spanking.” But yet I can find many cases of parental abuse in the form of severe beatings that required hospitalization.
I have been told that parents have been jailed because their child called 911 and reported that there parents were abusing them and when the police arrive the kid has made false allegations and so on.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:53 amNC – those situations have occurred in many places – not just Toledo.
The spankings we got as kids are now defined as child abuse. The laws in Florida (can’t speak to Ohio) say that you can spank your child as long as it’s on the buttocks only. If you spank and there is a red mark anywhere off the cheek of the butt you just crossed the line to abuse.
While I am not a proponent of smacking a kid in the face, on the head, twisting arms, etc. I fail to understand where a well placed smack on the butt is going to seriously hurt them.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:20 am“The spankings we got as kids are now defined as child abuse. The laws in Florida (can’t speak to Ohio) say that you can spank your child as long as it’s on the buttocks only. ”
“I fail to understand where a well placed smack on the butt is going to seriously hurt them.”
Thanks I will have a look at the Florida laws.
The problem is your definition of a “well placed smack on the butt” may not be the same to a parent that is themselves a victim of abuse and to them what they received as a child, and probably not a well placed smack on the butt, amounts to abuse.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:27 am“The spankings we got as kids are now defined as child abuse. The laws in Florida (can’t speak to Ohio) say that you can spank your child as long as it’s on the buttocks only. If you spank and there is a red mark anywhere off the cheek of the butt you just crossed the line to abuse.”
A quick check on google reveals this;
“We continue to have thousands of children enter the Foster Care System for the same reasons: physical discipline to the point of leaving marks; causing broken bones; shaking, dropping, kicking infants and toddlers – that leaves children with injuries severe to the point of death or brain damage; children living in deplorable unkempt conditions; children left alone in apartments, houses, and cars; and children used and exploited for the degrading sexual habits of adults.”
http://www.onyxmagazine.com/aspx/parenting.aspx
Spanking is not abusive in it pure form when it is taken to the extremes as shown here, then it is.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:34 amI think those “well placed smacks on the butt” kept us in line as kids. No, I’m not talking about the ones that were abused, but in my family the thought of getting a spanking put the fear of God in you! And we weren’t abused one bit.
I’ll still never forget my now 11 year old, who was 7 or 8 at the time, telling me they were going to call 911 because I had placed one single “well placed smack on their butt”. I handed them to phone and said “Go ahead and call if you think that will make your life better, but you’re in for a rude awakening”. I understand that children are abused and that it isn’t always the right thing to hit, but sometimes it’s simply necessary and I think by training children that it’s abuse it has taken away a bit of “leverage” from the parents. Children have nothing to fear except maybe having the computer or video games taken away. I don’t think children should live in fear, but I do think that they need to have the fear of being seriously punished. I, personally, don’t spank, I get better results by talking to my kids and increasing chores, but if I felt that a good smack on their butt was the right thing to do, I would not hesitate.
But I can see where it would seem wrong in the eyes of a parent who was a victim of child abuse when they were a child themselves. It’s kind of one of those “darned if you do, darned if you don’t” situations that is a very big decision.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:42 am“I think those “well placed smacks on the butt” kept us in line as kids. No, I’m not talking about the ones that were abused, but in my family the thought of getting a spanking put the fear of God in you!”
Me too, I got those and I remember my dad using a red book that was the perfect size to drive home his point, although it did not put the fear of god in me as I do not fear god, but it did make me listen to what I was told do and I did it.
“….but sometimes it’s simply necessary and I think by training children that it’s abuse it has taken away a bit of “leverage” from the parents.”
I cannot help but wonder who is training them or are we reacting to a bad situation with a wide paint brush about something that is not defined as abuse, spanking.
I did the same with the phone call to the police and I had a neighbor, when I lived out east, who did the same thing and the police came and the office talked to the complainant and the officer told the kid that there was another call about the parent disciplining there would be trouble from the police the next time.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:52 amNC,
I have a friend who made the mistake of swatting his child on the buttocks while in a store. The child was clothed, and the swat was no harder than one might slap a mosquito on their arm. A “helping soul” in the store followed him out to gain his license number, and proceeded to call Children’s Services. CS then proceeded to serves as judge and jury, forcing said parent to prove there was NOT abuse in the family. Now, anyone with some skill in logic knows it is impossible to prove a negative. And, in fact, CS admitted that the only evidence they had was the phone report.
Then, when the courts do become involved – after a child learns that parents are not allowed to parent – they act to preserve the “self esteem.”
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:47 am“Then, when the courts do become involved – after a child learns that parents are not allowed to parent – they act to preserve the “self esteem.”
So, to get to the level of the courts it would have to be serious abuse and not merely unsubstantiated allegations, right?
Our systems are designed to protect the kids from abusive situations and will act with the best interests of the kid and if a parent did nothing then nothing wrong was done.
And The Blade also points out the difficulty with keeping the alleged cop killer off the streets.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:02 amI don’t think I’d be too eager to spank a kid who has a gun.
I never struck my kid. It was tempting at times, but only because I was at wit’s end, not knowing how else to deal with some behaviors than to just let my temper get the better of me. I don’t think it’s a good thing to strike a kid in anger, and if you cool down, there doesn’t seem to be much reason to. I see physical confrontations as a failure of every other form of communication and reasoning, and I see it as teaching a child a lesson that will not serve him well long-term.
BrianInFlorida, I really enjoyed your colorful writing and the evocative nature of your post. You took me back to a different era and it felt so innocent compared to what has become of our culture today. I don’t think today’s troubles can be fixed with yesterday’s approaches because the nature of the beast has evolved to something more pervasive and serious than in times past (though that uzi sounds a bit serious).
I seriously doubt that knocking Jobe around would have produced a kid who was any less troubled.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:07 pmLeaving your children in a car for 45 minutes while shopping Rink’s Bargain City because you as parents don’t want to fuss with kids while shopping is considered child abuse today, yet it was commonplace when I was a child.
The “fear” I’m speaking of didn’t result from a swat on the ass, it was grasp you by your lapels and lifted to eye level and the facts became clearer as to who was in charge. It was more than the “wait until your father comes home” as your mother was also a discipliniarian. The “fear” came from just knowing what was going to occur to you when you screwed up, and there were no hollow and empty threats. I had neighbors just nod their head at my parents to indicate that I came home when I skipped school. And there was receiprocation amongst the neighbors and their children. When we as kids messed up, not only did you get lit up, you could hear your buddies getting their turn from your bedroom window. It was not being allowed to leave the block until you were 16 years old, not having friends spend the night, home when the streetlights came on. And even today, even though she is frail and tiny, I still fear my mother.
I just want to add that I did listen to the podcast with Dan on Fred’s show, and I wholeheartedly agree, but I also want to add that anyone disregarding a direct police order deserves everything they get. The only definition I acknowledge as “police brutality” is serving a warrant on the wrong house.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:31 pmMine grew up having to follow some of the same rules I did, and if you ask my 12 year old I am a horribly mean mother at times but I see the lack of parenting or the fear of being a parent too often. Many of my friends thought they could be their child’s buddy and then are amazed that the child grows up to not respect them or their rules.
I’m not sure if I agree with your definition of police brutality because there is a difference between getting a suspect under control to arrest them and beating the crap out of them. I also know thought that not every claim of police brutality is a valid one. How much force is necessary is very hard to put into some type of blanket statement as to what is acceptable and what is not.
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:11 pmAnd there is a difference between before and after taken into custody.
Blanket statement I apologize for, but the intent is sincere. If you truly believe you will not be harmed by assaulting a police officer, including making them run after you, while doing their task is just asking for a lesson.
Especially now that you can see how quick pulling a gun and firing while being grasped at can change a community in a reactive second. I’m more comfortable knowing my police force is worth a thought before something stupid is decided.
February 23rd, 2007 at 6:02 pmI don’t disagree that attempting to flee from a police officer is going to create a possible scenario where personal harm may come to you.
February 23rd, 2007 at 6:07 pm“If you truly believe you will not be harmed by assaulting a police officer…..”
Just to put this whole alleged police abuse in perspective it is the mother making the claim.
“Leaving your children in a car for 45 minutes while shopping Rink’s Bargain City because you as parents don’t want to fuss with kids while shopping is considered child abuse today, yet it was commonplace when I was a child.”
That was then, this is now.
There have been many reports and arrests of parents leaving kids in cars in the middle of summer and some of the kids have died.
February 24th, 2007 at 7:11 amLet me help you, NC.
Excerpts from a recent Blade article titled “Suit accuses 3 city police of excessive use of force.”
Jack Colbert, 45, claims that Sgt. Richard Moreno entered his residence at 939 Woodstock Ave. and that the sergeant shocked him with a Taser after Mr. Colbert, according to the lawsuit, witnessed Officers Andre Cowell and Lon Woodard assault a man who had been stopped in front of the plaintiff’s home for a traffic violation.
The lawsuit claims the incident occurred after Mr. Colbert witnessed Sergeant Moreno use a Taser on a 28-year-old Toledo man who tried to escape during the traffic stop in the 900 block of Woodstock. The police report said the suspect, who was arrested on 20 outstanding warrants, was shocked with a Taser after he punched Sergeant Moreno in the face.
Now, what does that say again? Oh, the suspect punched the officer in the face.
Mr. Colbert claims that Officers Cowell and Woodard arrived and “began to brutally kick” the man “about his face, head, and body” while he was in handcuffs, and the officers told Mr. Colbert that “he would be next” after he yelled at the officers to stop.
Mr Colbert was warned.
According to Sergeant Moreno’s report, Mr. Colbert threatened the officers while they were arresting the man from the traffic stop. He was chased into his home after refusing to comply with an order to stop and was shocked with the Taser when he refused to get on the floor, the report said.
According to a police report, the incident Aug. 31 resulted in Mr. Colbert being arrested and charged with drug trafficking, possession of drug paraphernalia, failure to secure a dangerous ordnance, failing to obtain a handgun permit, and menacing. Two handguns, ammunition, marijuana, and other drug-related items were found in the plaintiff’s home, the police report said.
Two birds with one stone. Good call.
Now, Mr Colbert claims this 28 year old man was in custody. The police report shows that they were still apprehending when Mr Colbert interviened.
Don’t assault a cop and don’t shoot your mouth off when you got weed and unregistered guns in your house.
February 24th, 2007 at 7:43 am“Let me help you, NC.
Excerpts from a recent Blade article titled “Suit accuses 3 city police of excessive use of force.”
Pardon, I thought we were referencing the person who is alleged to have shot and killed the police man.
The article you quoted is about another case, is it not?
February 24th, 2007 at 8:58 amI have lived in the Toledo area for 35 years and I can tell you that it is not where the kids live that cause the problem. It is the fact that parents just aren’t what they used to be. More responsibility and less income combined with more single parents make for a lethal combonation. My wife is a school teacher and has been for the last 12 years and parents never back the schools for anything. Whole schools are “hamstrung” because they have no way of diciplining the kids. Mostly it is out of guilt for failing in a marriage or not being able to provide for their kids the way they were. They have no pride and they feel guilty. The natural human reaction is to try to please everyone in order to compensate for coming up short.
February 24th, 2007 at 9:59 amExample; when I was a young man I knew that if I got in trouble at school I would get it twice as bad at home regardless if my parents thought the school was in the right or not. I would also come home to both parents. Today, if teacher looks at a child wrong the parent (there is only usually one) jumps all over the school claiming that they are “picking on little Johnny” and “my kid wouldn’t do that”. Parents should consider the schools on their team not the enemy! Kids will play one off against the other as long as they can get away with it. It is the tail wagging the dog.
Another point about parenting is that if that kid was on parole why didn’t the mother notice that he wasn’t in the house? If you had a troubled teen wouldn’t you keep better tabs on him/her? I am sure this wasn’t the first time he was out too late. The mother should have called the police herself if he wasn’t where he was supposed to be. This again would have shown some goodwill at the very least.
Look I don’t think that we should go back to beating our kids, but I do think that we should grow some balls and start calling it like we see it and stop worrying about being so politically correct. Our society today is so worried about what people think we miss the whole point. Remember, our kids follow our lead and in the end it is they who miss out.
I made a blanket statement that you’re referencing in entry 45, and Lisa corrected me and I acknowledged and clarified.
When the gun was taken off of Powell, it was found to be in a “cocked position”. That is “probable cause” that Powell intended to flee no matter the outcome, just as Jobe did. Did Powell intend to shoot a police officer? You bet he did. Just that the two officers was enough to overpower Powell, and unfortunately left one pursuing Jobe.
Would it have been different had the officer count had been reversed?
Nope, we’d be offering sympathies to another family.
And what do you think would have happened had Mr Colbert, in his “testosterone and drug-fueled” frenzy, was able to access one of his guns in the condition he was in?
Or what about the genius that not only punched Moreno in the face and attempted to flee? Wouldn’t you think that someone in that capacity would try to break containment by one officer trying to cuff him and required police back up to assist in subduing the perp, all the while listening to someone not even involved shooting his mouth off and exacerbating the situation?
I stand by my statement. If you’re breaking the law and the law comes knocking, don’t fight it.
February 24th, 2007 at 10:03 amNothing for teens to do? Young Jobe could have gone to school during the day. Done some homework after school. Helped around the house. Eventually, he could have found himself asleep at 2:00 am instead of out on the street involved in whatever he was doing.
Sorry….nothing to do. Rubbish.
February 24th, 2007 at 3:34 pmSorry to take so long to post my rant. I couldn’t bring myself to do it before Keith was interred. . .
February 26th, 2007 at 8:07 pmI was a teenager in the 70s and I lived in the New South End
area of toledo for 21 years. We did not have video games
or public recreation to keep us busy.(SHOCKER!!!)We did
sneak out of the house at 1am during the week ends. We
would hang out at the school playground until it was not
fun anymore and go home.
No one was selling dope. No one killed anyone. Sometimes
we learned about life earlier than we should have, but, We did not leave any families without fathers nor did we destroy our neighborhood.
We were all products of the Toledo Public School System at
the time that the school was allowed to enforce discipline.
We got it from both sides. From our parents and at school
if you so needed.
I wish I had a time machine.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:49 pm