Thou shalt not park in your driveway…The updates!
The below thread when this all started is getting to be above 50 comments and someone who hasn’t had the time to read through all of it will not be updated as to where we are now. Yes, Toledo once again got national media attention on an issue that is creating lots of emails and lots of calls. City Council has gotten quite a few calls on this issue, I’m certain the Mayor’s office has as well. Here’s the brief overview, it is legal for the City to issue tickets on this in the manner in which they were given. It’s also appears to really be illegal in the City of Toledo to park in a driveway unless it is concrete or asphalt. It appears from looking at the changes that were made to a huge portion of the Zoning ordinances in 2004 that this was approved by Toledo City Council by a vote of 11 to one.
As for the vote on passage: Gerken, Grachek, Kapszukiewicz, Ludeman, McCloskey, McConnell, Sarantou, Szollosi, Ashford, Brown, Esbobar (11) voting yea; Shultz (1) voting nay. Mayor Jack Ford signed this ordinance into law.
The easiest solution? An amendment to that section excluding all homes built before whatever date they come up with that would prevent scores of homeowners and tenants who live in residential homes where the driveway is gravel or brick (though you could try to argue brick was dust free) and has been prior to 2004. I’ve already suggested to several members of council this as a solution.
From what has been written in the comments of the other thread, at least one person was ticketed for this in 2006. Why that didn’t become an issue then and was fixed then, I don’t know but since it’s obvious this is an issue where quite a few Toledo residents only way to avoid breaking the law is to pay for new driveways to be installed? It’s clear that would create a hardship.
People have called and emailed to City Council and to me from outside of the Toledo area that this type of enforcement would keep them from ever wanting to move to Toledo. It doesn’t appear from what I’ve read in the hundreds of pages of documentation from 2004 when this was changed this was purposeful, granted I’m not done yet, but so far it doesn’t appear to be purposeful. It appears to be a scenario where the law of unintended consequences happened, but now that it is getting attention? There’s no reason to not fix it…Nor was there really any reason to ticket, while it is written as a law, it’s pretty certain that those gravel driveways have been there for quite some time…
The Blade has an update where it’s stated the City’s power to issue tickets is going to be raised in court by Dan Wagner and Councilman Collins and Wagner both believing gravel is an approved driveway, linked here:
Both Mr. Collins and Mr. Wagner said crushed stone surfaces are a type of pavement.
That’s now however how the actual ordinance is phrased:
1107.1906 Surfacing and Drainage.
Off-street parking and loading spaces, parking lots, maneuvering areas, aisles and driveways must be surfaced with concrete, bituminous asphalt, or other dust-free material other than gravel or loose fill, and be graded to drain all surface water towards the interior of the parking lot.
Updated media links, Fox Toledo where Councilman Collins says this is an abuse of power; WTVG Councilman Collins speaks against parking tickets; NBC24 Councilman Collins comparison of the city of Toledo to a psych ward; which to be accurate he compared it to:
“Dealing in an environment we live in, the city of Toledo with the head of the community being Carleton S. Finkbeiner, he is never wrong and those who worship him it’s like the movie ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest’,” Councilman Collins said. “They find an attraction and an affinity for one another.”
But does the Acting Commissioner of Streets, Harbors and Bridges have the legal authority to enter and remain on private property to enforce off street parking regulations? Perhaps time would be better spent filling the numerous pot holes and craters that seem to inhabit most of Toledo’s streets.
June 16th, 2009 at 3:38 pmUnder – 129.05. Special police power. – they do.
Now is that a valid use of time is of course a totally different issue, but it appears there are quite a few people that have special police powers that Toledo City Council approved in 2007…
June 16th, 2009 at 3:42 pmdon’t look now but…
wuom (91.7 fm – npr radio in ann arbor) has a story that vaguely ridicules carty for spending his weekends mowing grass at city parks.
June 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pmWell, considering he also has special police powers at least he’s not out weekends issuing tickets…yet…
June 16th, 2009 at 5:19 pmIf I’m not mistaken, part of the City Tow Lot where the City of Toledo stores all the vehicles that they tow is a stone area. Let’s see, the city tows your car to a place where you will get more tickets so that when the tickets accumulate they can tow your car—-WHERE?
Just think, Carty sent a team to Tampa Florida to compete for the All-American City competition this week. Maybe this is how he is paying for it?
June 16th, 2009 at 6:27 pmWell, this story not only made the Drudge Report, it showed up on our local news (Greensboro, NC!) at 6:00. Now how stinking pitiful is that?
Pretty bad when such a non-issue can make national news … and it involves Carty and his ready, fire, aim personality.
Tsk, tsk tsk
June 16th, 2009 at 7:27 pmLisaRenee wrote:
Ohmygod, you’re right. What kind of car does he drive? It pays to be aware.
-Dan
June 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pmDan, maybe we are approaching this the wrong way, maybe…the Mayor and all City Council and all of the other people who have special powers can start ticketing the minor offenses that the police don’t have time for. Imagine the cost savings!
June 16th, 2009 at 7:34 pmPhotodan wrote:
We are all empowered as citizens to make arrests, follow him and watch for offenses, as he does the folks of toledo. Arrest him for his transgressions, if you see them.
June 16th, 2009 at 8:08 pmI heard earlier today that the Habitat for Humanity homes all have gravel driveways. Weren’t they approved when built? I don’t think grandfathering is the answer – amend the ordinance totally! Dust and drainage are the issues???? I think the true story is “revenue enhancement.”
June 16th, 2009 at 8:40 pmWhen I see Carty and Sue’s fists click together and they say in unison, “Wonder Twin Powers: Activate!” I’m cancelling my online access…
June 16th, 2009 at 8:49 pmSuzanne wrote:
(I think)That is a jimmy carter thing. (I think) He is a far lefty and is immune from these laws and things like that. (Rest removed because it was way off topic)
(Admin edits)
June 16th, 2009 at 9:14 pmOh, Lisa Habitat for Humanity is a jimmy carter thing. Why do you require that I say, I think it is?
June 16th, 2009 at 9:21 pm|It is not, an I think, or in my opinion.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:22 pmWe’ve been through this before, you are expressing an opinion not a fact and the rest of your comment had nothing to do with this topic. Jimmy Carter doesn’t really either, it’s driveways, the houses built by Habitat with gravel driveways is related to the topic. Hamas or Obama isn’t…
Stay on topic, it’s not that difficult of a request.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:23 pmJimmy carter has a lot to do with Habitat for Humanity and it is a fact. And you changed my post to say it was my opinion. It is a fact.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:27 pmI am not the one that brought up Habitat for Humanity
June 16th, 2009 at 9:28 pmLook at my comment, the mentioning of Habitat was done because they built homes with gravel driveways it has nothing to do with Carter, Hamas, Obama, etc. I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you to please stay on topic. I’m getting tired of having to edit out off topic material.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:30 pmI think that council will need to address/amend this pretty quickly now that it’s really ‘out’. Some houses were built, recently, with gravel drives, some houses have always had gravel driveways.
Many of the alley’s in Toledo are gravel. The amendment would fix the problem.
Is anybody else bothered that we keep getting national news coverage like this? It doesn’t look good for Toledo. It surely won’t make people think ‘ah! Now there’s a place I’d like to buy a place and settle down’.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:34 pmwell I think a reasonable person, might ask, if allowed, have any of the properties constructed by Habitat for Humanity, whose owners have cars parked on said gravel driveways have been tortured? With fines and special attention?
June 16th, 2009 at 9:35 pmI think it is helping Lisa’s numbers, if not toledo’s. Lisa you are up to number 2 now. you go girl.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:36 pmNo, it has nothing to do with my numbers if anything they will drop but that’s okay. The numbers would reflect last week not today.
And I don’t think gravel can be tortured…Fines could be considered a hardship but torture would be a stretch.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:41 pmI am mixed about this topic considering I did not see exactly where the alledged parked. I see some good in having an ordinance like this because I don’t live in Hazard Co. Kentucky for a reason. I do not want to live next to some w/t who thinks parking on his front yard, which is closer to his nascar flag, is fashionable. Call me crazy, but I do my part to keep my corner nice and tidy in the city.
June 16th, 2009 at 9:45 pmThe real solution is to get rid of the ordinance entirely. While they are at it, Toledo city council could go through Toledo law and get rid of six pounds of other law that serves no good purpose.
Of course, that would mean that people could begin controlling their own lives, and Toledo city council couldn’t have that… could they?
June 16th, 2009 at 10:32 pmMichael wrote:
I bought a home in West Toledo in 1993 that had a gravel driveway. The house was built in 1949. A few years ago I upgraded to asphalt, for which I shelled out $1,500.
There are more than a few gravel and brick driveways in my neighborhood, sir, and these folks keep up their properties as well as anyone else. In addition, it is odd that the city could ticket my law-abiding neighbors, yet my neighborhood is without curbs and sidewalks. Moreover, we don’t even have asphalt or concrete streets: the city uses a gravel-and-pitch blend that raises quite a bit of dust, while piles of gravel and dust accumulate at intersections and at the roadside.
Take a look around the city before you assume that everyone with a gravel driveway is some knuckle-dragging hillbilly caricature.
June 17th, 2009 at 9:42 amLisaRenee wrote:
if you are tired of editing off topic material then maybe you shouldn’t run a blog…
June 17th, 2009 at 9:46 amHistoryMike, if you look at the comments, Mike came back and recommented, and when you look at some of the pictures/video where these citations happened? Some of them were not on gravel driveways, they were on gravel parking spots…
Teddy, maybe but considering it is my blog? I can make the rules. One of which is to try to get people to stay on topic. Anyone who doesn’t like my rules? Doesn’t have to participate and they’ll find their comments gone and end up not having their comments posted if they are off topic.
June 17th, 2009 at 9:53 amHmmm… what about the Grass lot on the corner of St Clair and Lafayette?(next to the parking lot) I live on South St Clair and have noticed that nearly every time there is a home Mud Hens game this lot is filled with cars. So if this is right they are all illegally parked….and I am preatty sure they are charging those people to illegally park in the grass. I will have to call the Fink on these ones.
June 17th, 2009 at 1:55 pmBeing born and raised in the country, I love gravel drives. Not only is there an old-fashioned homey feel and look to them, but ecologically, in my opinion, they are superior.
Parking tickets are issued somewhat selectively. Down at Jefferson and Huron where the new arena is, I was told the following by a parking meter ticket-receiver. This past winter when the construction was at fever pitch, the construction workers themselves did park in pay-lots. And if anybody parked at a meter and went over, they were almost certain to get a ticket. HOWEVER, every day all winter long [I was told], certain contractors were allowed to park their commercial vehicles unattended and left for long periods – in front of the parking meters – where it says “NO PARKING”. These vehicles were never ticketed, and it was obvious to other workers parking in the lots, that the meter-ticketers had been instructed to leave these commercial vehicles alone.
June 17th, 2009 at 3:20 pmI wonder which councilman/woman will show the needed courage to get this stupid law taken off the books.
But then again, this could be the cash cow Toledo city leaders are looking for…I rest my case.
June 17th, 2009 at 3:39 pmDoesn’t the Municipal code require the Commissioners of Streets, Bridges and Harbors be a professional engineer? I do not believe that Sue Frederick is a PE.
June 17th, 2009 at 5:50 pmThat is true Jenny, I think the way that is being bypassed is she is the “acting” Commissioner.
June 17th, 2009 at 7:57 pmDoes that me an acting law director would not have to be a lawyer or an acting police chief not a certified peace officer. I don’t think that you can ignore the legal requirements of a position by simply making a person the “acting” commissioner.
If I received one of these tickets, that’s how I’d challenge it, since, in spite of all the complaining, the tickets do seem to be authorized by municipal ordinance.
June 17th, 2009 at 9:37 pmLisaRenee wrote:
You just don’t get it Lisa. It has every thing to do with bias and stealing money from those who have. They are not going to tax/fine/steal from folks that live in the jimmy carter houses because they know they don’t have any money!
June 17th, 2009 at 9:40 pmWhich has nothing to do with this situation Not Again.
Jenny, you have a point and it’s one that has been asked, I’ll let you know as soon as I have an answer.
June 17th, 2009 at 9:51 pm