If public transportation is “socialism” then what are public roads?
One of the main arguments used for not supporting TARTA (or any public transportation system) is that public transportation is socialism and that anyone who supports public transportation must be automatically a socialist. It comes up almost every time a discussion about TARTA and funding comes up. Yet, I note with some irony, that the system of highways that we have right now was part of “Greatest Public Works Project in History”.
It’s fairly well accepted for people to complain about the condition of their streets, and to include that as part of the expectations that they have of the use of their taxes. The history of public transportation demonstrates it has existed in this country since 1630 in Boston with the first publicly operated ferryboat which was many decades before the bicycle became the form of transportation that spurred an interest in good roads…
We’ve come to expect roads, fire departments, police, and here in Toledo, trash collection to be key services that at one time governments did not provide, the historical reality is public transportation existed before fire departments did. While Toledo “Loves it’s Jeep” and we are firmly entrenched as an area where cars are considered a necessity, the very road system that is used would not exist as it does today without the support of tax dollars and a focus to “Get the farmers out of the mud!” by paving rural roads, that I suppose if it were an issue today, it would be stated here by some that it was the farmers fault for living out that far and they should not expect taxpayers in the urban areas to provide roads for them.
Something to think about…
How is supporting public transportation different than supporting public education or even the upkeep of the roads that we have? If you don’t want to help pay for the buses, trains and subways -let’s also stop paying to maintain the roads and turn them all into toll roads. You want a road without potholes. I want light rail and buses.
I will gladly pay higher taxes for decent public transportation. It enhances the quality of life for everyone even if you do not use it.
May 5th, 2009 at 10:30 amI oppose government roads just as much as TARTA for that very reason. you might be interested in this article by Walter Block detailing some good arguments against publicly funded roads:
http://mises.org/journals/jls/3_2/3_2_7.pdf
He also has a new book on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Privatization-Roads-Highways-Walter-Block/dp/193355004X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241533892&sr=8-2
May 5th, 2009 at 10:34 amPublic education is another example, so is the public health system, the public library system, and a variety of other programs that at one time did not exist but were created and supported by taxation.
May 5th, 2009 at 10:35 amDaryl, so that means you propose all roads should be private? Including residential roads? That would be an interesting situation.
Should fire and police also be private as well?
May 5th, 2009 at 10:36 amI guess we should not have “public health”, either. No efforts to monitor disease, or its spread. Certainly would get rid of the young, and the old, and just leave the “productive” citizens for our economy.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:33 amThe problem we have here is too much governement control of peoples lives here. I think this is reflected in an article in the blade about toledo being at the bottom for medium sized cities in business development. People that are extreme far left are totalitarians (total control of the people), and folks that are extreme in the other direction tend toward anarchy.
Too bad we can’t meet somewhere in the middle. The socialists are destroying toledo. All they want to do is tax us so they can help us and tell us how to live. They don’t get that we don’t need help, or direction.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:46 amAt one time, fire departments were private.
Whichever one you subscribed to gave you a medallion that you posted on your property to show that you were a paying customer of theirs and they fought your fire if and when they were needed. Just make sure that you were paid up.
Eventually though, the tax supported muni departments came into being, putting the subscription departments out of business.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:52 amRoads are used by all whether it be driving a car, riding a bike, even walking. Not everyone uses public transportation. I pay my own car expense. I pay for gas, repairs, insurance and anything else having to do with my private vehicle? Why should I pay for someone to use public transportation? They are not helping me pay my car expenses. It should be funded by those that use it. That is something to think about.
May 5th, 2009 at 1:02 pmIn that case, let’s have a tax so that for every mile Pam drives, she gets a bill. The more Pam drives, the higher the bill is each month. Those of us who drive less, will pay less to repair and maintain the roads.
Those of us who walk to work and live downtown will not have to pay anything. Why should those of us who chose to walk to work, to the bar, etc have to pay to maintain the road for Pam?
May 5th, 2009 at 1:34 pmRoad repairs come out of gas taxes, so Pam is paying for repairs as she drives.
So folks that ride the bus should pay for it. Bus fairs should not be subsidized by poeple who don’t ride them. Most of the TARTA buses I see are empty anyway. I say just trash the whole service and cut property taxes.
May 5th, 2009 at 1:57 pmnot to mention there are hundreds more miles of streets, water lines, and sewer lines to be built and maintained because every yard needed to be 15′ wider to accommodate a driveway and 25′ deeper for a garage – all because of the car. as neighborhoods accommodated the car it became more and more difficult to walk (healthier and less expensive) to a store to pick up each days meal – so they finally segregated the uses completely thus essentially requiring you and me to use a car to get basic food. since you went thru the trouble of going to the store you might as well buy canned food that lasts months but is not as healthy and you need a bigger kitchen to store it all. you don’t walk to the store, you buy bad food, you don’t socialize with your neighbors because you don’t see them as you walk and when you get to the kroger, so many people from so many neighborhoods shop there that you rarely see even acquaintances so you don’t make friendships or catch-up with neighbors on what is going on. at that point you may as well put the garage right out front of the house since you want a connection with nature but going to a public park is too far away to walk and your subdivision got rid of sidewalks and you use your backyard as a big well fertilized piece of sod. etc
May 5th, 2009 at 2:08 pm…and as people don’t walk and eat crappy food they get fatter and fatter. So government decides they produce more waste and greenhouse gases than normal people, so government will make them pay extra carbon taxes to make up for the extra pollution that they generate.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:19 pmPam, you do pay for a portion of the road costs with gas taxes but not all, people who don’t own cars pay other taxes that are used to generate funding for roads. Which realistically means everyone contributes to funding for public functions in one way or another, either through property tax, rent, sales tax, etc., few get anything for free.
I just found it ironic that people selectively target public transportation when there are a great many other public services that not everyone uses especially when you consider the history of public transportation and public roads.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:47 pmLisaRenee wrote:
Everyone benefits from the public road system, if you think about it, even the people that only ride the buses. Without the roads, there’d be no buses.
And people that only walk rely on the road system to transport goods to places where they can buy them.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:53 pmEveryone benefits from the public transportation system as well, even those who don’t use them because it reduces the number of cars on the road as well as the environmental impact, especially now that biodiesel is being used more.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:55 pmWhen does paying for everyone else stop? Like I said, I pay for my own car and it’s expenses, no one helps me out with my transportation. I choose to own a car just like one chooses to use public transporation. I’m sick of seeing my paycheck ate up with all the taxes I pay. If you benefit from public transportation, you should pay for it.
May 5th, 2009 at 3:42 pmWhich people do pay for it, it’s not free, it’s subsidized but then again, so are many public services. A sales tax is felt to be a more equitable system of paying for a transportation system, just as we here have accepted things like having the turnpike still be a toll road long after it was supposed to be a free road.
At least in this scenario it would be up to the voters to decide as to when the General Assembly decided to not follow through on the wishes of the voters when it came to the turnpike…
May 5th, 2009 at 3:46 pmLisaRenee wrote:
Yes, all roads. I would also support private police and fire. as much as I hate the mayor, I actually agree with his recent statements that the police don’t actually prevent violent crime.
May 5th, 2009 at 6:31 pmThe right for communities, states and the country to vote to use tax money to build public roads is an absolute. We made the decision to build ‘em, we bought ‘em and we own ‘em. They’re not private. If anybody is unhappy with that they’ll need to get some initiatives on the ballot.
As long as voters make the decision at the ballot to support a public transportation system – this is their right.
In many cultures, and still in some areas in the U.S., people have a feeling of community and civic responsibility. This means providing transportation for those who cannot afford private transportation and also for those who are not mentally or physically capable of driving a car.
It’s called loving your neighbor and caring for your less fortunate neighbors.
As for the police – in times with a more secure source of funding than the fleeing taxbase here in Toledo – police do indeed have crime prevention programs.
When you are in the situation that we are currently in (thanks in large part to the Mayor), we will not have enough of a force left to react to the crime at hand.
It’s like the old saying, ‘it’s hard to remember, when you’re up to your ass in alligators, that you were supposed to drain the swamp’.
May 5th, 2009 at 7:25 pmI share with Lisa the frustration of listening to far-right folks trudging out the words “socialism” and “communism” for every government function. Hooda Thunkit also points out an important fact in that late 18th and early 19th century America was perhaps the best example of “pure” capitalism, and there were significant problems with near-universal privatization that no longer exist. In just the realm of transportation here are a few examples:
* Few roads would not be built or maintained since there was no incentive.
* Private toll roads became prohibitive in cost.
* Unscrupulous individuals would build hidden mud traps in order to make money pulling out wagons from ditches or by putting up travelers at the inn that just happened to be a quarter mile away.
As Not Again said, there needs to be a balance between public and private initiatives. Government works best in advisory or supervisory roles, while the private sector works best in providing products and services at lower costs. Some social needs (good roads, police protection, fire protection, water and sewage systems) make more sense for government to manage, since public health and safety trump possible cost savings.
Anyways, enough already with the cries of “socialism” every time the government spends a buck.
May 5th, 2009 at 8:05 pmThanks Mike, well written, and I think part of the problem is too many people aren’t aware of our history, which was an extra plus to this post.
May 5th, 2009 at 8:09 pmI would like to add, that a private bus service would not be in business to send regularly scheduled and empty buses to Perrysburg, for example, on a regular basis. Unless of course, the private company was funded by the tax payer. Free money right?
Wasteful spending such as this is not justifiable, and the attempt to force feed Oregon into the fold of waste and government control of people, and their personal resources, is a very good example of what we do not need, particularity now. But, I suspect the Totalitarians will force their will on the people, in the end.
May 5th, 2009 at 8:38 pmThe whole empty bus thing is not really a valid statement, it’s been tossed out there but the reality is if there were totally no ridership then there would be no bus route. If the bus is an express bus and is going directly to one location to pick up people or is returning to the central garage they could be empty. I ride TARTA at least twice a week, I have never gotten on a bus that did not pick up and drop off other riders while I was on it. I know people that use the Perrysburg/Rossford part of TARTA to get to work every day, without it? They’d be out of a job. But then I guess they could just not try to work if they can’t afford a car and just let the government take care of them.
Claiming that being able to vote on something is Totalitarian is a bit of a stretch, now if the Commissioners just deemed this was going to be done and no one was allowed to have a say that’d be one thing but that’s not the case here. There are 317,036 registered voters in Lucas County, 166,287 are listed as being in Toledo using those who could vote for the TPS bond issue, that leaves 150,749 who are registered to vote and are not within Toledo, given the lower percentage of voter turnout in Toledo than traditional the suburbs have? In Toledo voter turn out was 64.3 % for all of Lucas County it was 69.9 %. It’s not a huge majority where Toledo forces it’s will on the rest of Lucas County.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:07 pmWell I see an empty bus every morning driving along the river in east toledo. And at night the one heading to Levis Commons is always empty. Not making this stuff up.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:26 pmDo me a favor and note the time and the bus number – it could be as simple as it being an express bus on it’s way to a location or back to the central garage. TARTA does ridership reviews, that’s how they determine routes. There has to be a need for it to exist for it to be created and for it to remain in place, else it would be cut when they look at their routes.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:32 pmWell, we Have been subsidizing the motor vehicle for decades to the extreme. They built a huge highway to newark ohio i.e. 161 and it would have been a heck of a lot cheaper to build a light rail system that would not need all the attention and maintenance that a road requires, and they would not have those pesky RFID readers that the Bush/Taft administration installed.
Remember, it was GM and other large corporate concerns that killed public transportation and if you don’t accept this as fact, it has been proven without a doubt. I lived on an ELECTRIC trolley line as a child. Stop and think, oil is primitive as stone wheels.
May 6th, 2009 at 11:12 amnaton of gandhis wrote:
I wonder how much it would cost to take an electric trolley to Florida??????? Of course oil is primitive, I think they call it fossil fuel!!!!! LOL
I am saying, and I’m entitled to my opinion, that I’m sick of a tax to pay for this and a tax to pay for that. If it works so well, let a private business run it. Let those that use it pay for it. Oh and Just Me, since you use the sidewalks to walk to work and everywhere else you go, let’s tax you for the upkeep of those sidewalks.
May 6th, 2009 at 1:36 pmLisaRenee wrote:
Bus number 416 or 418 with Downtown on front. I saw it empty at 3:55pm heading North on 65 near Navarre.
May 6th, 2009 at 4:33 pmThanks! I’ll see what I can find out.
May 6th, 2009 at 4:41 pmThanks, sweetie.
May 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pmWe just had another 2 school levies pass here… I am tired of it too but I would like to see a more EFFICIENT use of my tax dollars. And with the recent turndown of the stock market, how is your retirement doing, SSI? MMMM Privitized madness is just that, ownership of everyone else. Social consciousness has not evolved to accomadate human compassion. Until it evolves, it needs be mandated and regulated by those who amongst us are WISER.
Pam wrote:
May 6th, 2009 at 11:00 pmIMO public transportation is a service that makes a community more desirable, even if you don’t use it. It would be nice if people receiving tax dollars used them more efficiently.
May 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pmRobin wrote:
Well remember how Carty and Co. frightened residents into passing the 3/4% tax last election. Residents were told police and fire would be cut. Well it passed and police are being let go. Has anyone looked at the City of Toledo’s website and clicked on the directory.
http://www.ci.toledo.oh.us/Government/PhoneDirectory/tabid/98/Default.aspx
Look at the number of secretaries and assistants that are in the mayor’s office. Look at the number of human resources people. Look at the number of people in the law department that Carty doesn’t use to defend lawsuits. There was a park levy in Wood County that passed. Residents didn’t know this levy was going for raises for the staff. As soon as that was known, residents were up in arms. COSI was voted down twice and the third time turned out to be a charm. Look at the school levies that passed and the condition of our schools. What do residents do, we keep passing levies and taxing ourselves. What should be learned is any agency that depends on public tax dollars should have to prove to the voters why this money is needed. They should be made to publish their most recent audit without residents having to file any kind of freedom of information act. They answer to us not the other way around. These agencies know they can be as irresponsible as they want and all they have to do is give a sob story to a gullible public. They should have to prove why they need this money. If a private business ran like most goverment agencies, it wouldn’t be in business for long.
May 8th, 2009 at 9:48 amI saw another empty bus on 65 this morning
May 13th, 2009 at 10:25 amLisa, another empty bus, and with windows opened. I guess the driver was trying to clean the thing out, as it was raining. Since you asked me about empty buses, it was on Front Street heading North and turning on to Consaul. Bus number 406 at 4:30 pm. Can you check on that one too? There was another one too, on Front Street but the windows were blackened and most were closed, however, I saw not a soul on it. But since not all of the windows were opened, I can’t say that it was empty. I wonder why they drive those things around in the rain, with windows opened?
May 13th, 2009 at 7:35 pmOkay, I asked about those as well, you are becoming my official bus watcher.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:15 pmI realize you are a strong supporter of this wasteful organization. I am only telling you what I have seen, and I know it is not what you want to hear.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:29 pmThere is not a more wasteful publicly funded organization in this area other than TARTA, in my opinion.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:34 pmI know Not Again, you’ve made that very clear.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:38 pmYes ma’am.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:44 pmI saw another one this morning. Heading South on Miami near I75 at 7:15. No shading on windows. Completely empty except for the lonely driver. Bus number 401.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:44 am