Portside as a Casino? Look at Detroit first…
The common thought by many seems to be, “Casinos are inevitable, it’s a way that politicians can raise taxes without raising taxes. It’s just like state lotteries.” Yet all we have to do is look up north to Detroit to be able to get some realistic hints as to what we could expect if gambling did become legal in Ohio and if Portside was made into a casino. One of the studies quoted often when it comes to the issue of crime, gives us a clue into other important information. Who would actually be spending money in a Toledo casino:
Over 9000 visitors were randomly intercepted in the non-gaming areas of the casino buildings. Of these, 7,212 or 79% were local and the remaining 1,887 or 21% were non-local.
The study also suggested that the increase in bankruptcy filings could be related to 9/11 as opposed to an indication of the economy or the casinos. When you look at the data since 2001, the Detroit Metro area had record personal bankruptcy filings, which is not to suggest they were all related to the casino but demonstrates there has not been a huge spin off in economic development related to the casinos. As this article from September of 2007 points out:
Todd Stern, owner of the Small Plates restaurant on Broadway downtown, said casinos don’t provide any business for him, mostly because gamblers enter a casino, eat and gamble there and then go home. Other nearby restaurant managers agreed.
Laurie Volk, an economic development consultant based in New Jersey, said casinos do little to attract the highly educated younger workers who are considered crucial to urban redevelopment. Those workers prefer more cultural amenities and meeting places such as coffee shops and casual
restaurants. “I don’t know if casinos help at all, frankly,” she said.
Then again, for Detroit part of the lure of casinos was to stop Detroit area residents from crossing over into Canada, they wanted to keep the tax dollars there. Thus if there are a huge amount of Toledo residents who currently head to Detroit or Windsor, it’s possible that money would be retained here locally.
All three Detroit casinos employ around 6,000 people directly and depending on who’s quoting the numbers an additional 2,000 to 6,000 more. It’s unrealistic to expect that one in Toledo would hire 3,000 and while some of the jobs are union and have health insurance, overall it’s been stated that casinos create jobs that don’t pay particularly well. Despite the fact that the three Detroit casinos provide revenue needed for the City of Detroit, it did not create a huge additional economic stimulus for that City, almost every year Detroit area residents face threatened cuts in services and the City faces a deficit.
There were such dreams used to sell area residents on what the Casinos would bring:
”This will create a minimum of 50 real, solid black millionaires,” predicted Herb Strather, a black real estate developer and president of Atwater Entertainment, a local group of investors that has a 55 percent equity stake in the Circus Circus project, though Circus Circus will maintain management control.
It has worked for Strather “Michigan’s own Donald Trump” he has invested millions in other casinos like the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe (yes, one of those related to Jack Abramoff) as well as other projects in and out of Detroit.
Just six years ago:
The strategy encourages the construction of an aquarium on the Detroit River, a new Motown Museum, a conference center in Troy and a gondola lift between Detroit and Windsor.
Many tourists would come to the two cities to ride the gondola, Connellan said. He said the cities have been exploring the possibility for some time and are now searching for the best location.
“Early research on the gondola suggests there would be about three million rides a year,” he said. “It’s essentially ready to go. Both cities are in favor of it.”
It turned out Windsor wasn’t quite in favor of it but some pretty pictures and plans still exist. Last year plans for the new Motown Museum fell through when the financing couldn’t come together. The old Aquarium was closed and it doesn’t appear any financing exists for a new one.
Maybe Casinos are inevitable, but if they aren’t a part of a larger destination package on an even larger scale than what Detroit has attempted, the majority of those who go to ones like Detroit are from the surrounding area, so you are not generating new money into the City, just recycling it…Unless a way is found to generate more spendable income, a small Casino in Toledo may be nice for those who support gambling, but it’s not quite what some are dreaming it will be.
The other aspect of realism to all of this is first voters would have to approve it…While I’m not a fan of gambling, what’s my key point? To quote Earl L. Grinols:
“Good policy requires that some party provide factual and accurate information,” he wrote. “Because a casino promoter, an Indian tribe or even local government places itself in the role of the house, thereby reaping benefits, does not mean that casinos are socially beneficial. Social benefits must take into account all stakeholders. There are benefits of casinos to players, to owners and to citizens, and there are costs as well. Identifying a winner or loser from the social perspective requires understanding the complete picture and knowing which components should be compared.”
Lisa,
Please, the magnum lotto dollars have been for the kids….(ya right.)
As for increase in crime….no worries….we have Scout. So there.
C’mon 7………
June 26th, 2008 at 11:53 pmPortside has not been able to succeed in any of its past entities. I doubt a casino would be any different.
I am not opposed to gambling. But I don’t think there needs to be a casino on every corner. Sooner or later having casinos everywhere will be nothing more than a pyramid scheme – everybody loses.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:48 amLisa,
Setting aside the fact that gambling is illegal in Ohio, and that the initiative expected to come to the ballot in November is for the Central Ohio Casino only; one is still left with the fact that the Portside building is simply too small to be profitable.
But let’s not let legality and logic get in the way of an interesting idea. Heck, maybe in fact the city could run the casino. Toledo seems to have had no problem with being on the wrong side of the law in the past … and it has a proven track record of successfully running businesses like ESM and ambulance servoce. (OK, sarcasm off)
June 27th, 2008 at 8:53 am“:Tourism officials say they hope the casinos will help persuade leisure travelers to check the city out – people like Don Lucy, a Lee, Mass., resident who visited Detroit for the first time to watch the Boston Red Sox play the Tigers at Comerica Park. The retired teacher said he planned to return to Greektown later to hit the slots.
Friends balked when he told them he was visiting Detroit, and he worried as he drove past smokestacks and grimy industrial landscapes. “Once you get in the city central, it’s beautiful, very nice,” Lucy said. “I’d like to come back out here again. I like Detroit. I never thought I’d say that.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20070815/ap_tr_ge/travel_trip_detroit_casinos
Having lived near Lee, Mass., the trees and woods and mountains do not compare to Detroit, but the out of state visitor saw something that he liked.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:53 amI think that the current situation with nothing in Portside far outweighs any good a casino which would provide jobs and a revenue source to the city would. Let’s stick with the status quo, we’re doing fine now and really don’t need any changes!!
June 27th, 2008 at 9:01 amCrime and the increase in crime is one stat cited.
Reading the local media, crime is all around us. People getting shot in the inner city, is a nearly daily event. That with stabbings and beatings.
Stripping houses for the siding and copper inside the abandoned houses is nothing new.
What are we to do, wait for retail shops to open up in the downtown area? Wait for industry to move in? Intermodel, more studies need to be conducted.
A small casino coupled with the new arena, might provide a resource to keep the visitors and their dollars in the city.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:30 amMaybe Portside could be put on a barge a floated out to Put N Bay where it will be so crowded that visitors and patrons will have to be turned away. The world headquarters of a Fortune 500 company could then be offered the land once occupied by Portside for free to build their new headquarters and Toledo would be saved!
June 27th, 2008 at 9:44 amIs that the best use at the best cost NC? If Grinols numbers are correct, Casino gambling causes up to $289 in social costs for every $46 of economic benefit. Our City is not exactly in a great financial position and neither is the State.
If Detroit has had problems luring more than day trippers, Toledo would have to do something very different. Dreams are great, but I think the reality of what has Detroit gained along with what could we realistically expect if Portside was changed to a Casino is important to look at.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:25 am“but I think the reality of what has Detroit gained along with what could we realistically expect if Portside was changed to a Casino is important to look at.”
Well sure, let us look at the issue, but we also need to look at what we have.
The first step is to acknowledge that things are not working, which many of us are doing, the second step is to look for ways to make changes, which we seem to be doing.
The next step is to implement the plans and ideas, which we are not doing all that well.
“Our City is not exactly in a great financial position and neither is the State. ”
And what is to be done?
More studies?
More reliance on what was and not what can be?
We can study and debate to the cows come home, someone in a position of leadership, needs to do that, lead and make some decisions.
“If Detroit has had problems luring more than day trippers, Toledo would have to do something very different. ”
Has had, and is now investigating ways to bring people to the area.
If a person from Lee, Mass. thinks that Detroit looks good, would he think the same of Toledo?
Take a look at Lee;
http://www.leechamber.org/index.php?nav_id=2
The traveler from there wants to return to Detroit, so why not Toledo? Give the traveler a reason to come here and spend some cash.
Toledo needs something. Relying on the auto industry is not going to cut it, relying on past industries is not cutting it.
People are leaving and not coming back.
Yes, there are costs and potential downsides to almost every thing.
We need something to prop up our crumbling neighborhoods.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:38 amToledo does need something, but trying something on a small scale that can be easily found in a close proximity on a larger scale, doesn’t appear to be something that would bring people to the area. If the goal is like what Detroit originally stated to get more money from those who live there rather than to go to Windsor then a Toledo casino might work, however residents would need an increase in spendable cash to be able to have any larger affect rather than to just take the same amount of entertainment dollars spent in the community and split them up even more. In that scenario, a casino would actually hurt other local businesses…
That’s not going to prop up our crumbling neighborhoods, nor has that worked in Detroit. Or any of the other places that have stand alone gambling facilities that are not a larger destination spot.
Maybe the reality is that Toledo needs to focus on jobs that are not related to the tourist industry. That we need to focus on what strengths we have rather than trying to be like everyone else with Riverwalks and Casinos…
June 27th, 2008 at 10:49 am“That we need to focus on what strengths we have ”
They are?
“That’s not going to prop up our crumbling neighborhoods, nor has that worked in Detroit”
No, not yet. But one does resurrect a crumbling, decaying city in the short term, it is a long term turn around.
Saving nickels and dimes, we went to a Detroit area casino in the last six months, and the area does show some signs of progress, but it is going to take time.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:04 amI have been to only one casino (Monte Carlo) in my life. It was fun to go in and watch the high rollers. If I could afford to lose, I would love to gamble. I do succumb to church festivals. Nothing more.
BTW, in Monaco, the ladies out front were very friendly and dressed to the hilt. HMMMMM…..
If I had Lisa’s magic wand, I would wave it for an “instant casino” at P/side….then give it one year and unwave it if necessary.
Toledo’s leaders have to do a much, much, much better job if anything is to succeed downtown. I don’t see that happening.
Too bad.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:09 amDetroit’s Greektown Casino has been forced into a series of layoffs over the past several years which severely cut the work force. The city of Detroit keeps raising the taxes that the casinos pay. Greektown filed bancruptcy last month. Enough said.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:25 amNC, one of our strengths is our workforce, our location when it comes to transportation and we do have areas where land could be purchased for green manufacturing or other similar technology related manufacturing at a lower cost.
Take Convergys as an example, while the end result was not a great one, those types of low tech jobs could easily be done here again, if the focus was made on US rather than shipping those jobs to call centers overseas where no matter how it’s done, there is a language barrier. There are other companies that do use US based call centers, especially related to the health/medical field which is another area where Toledo. Those are just a few off the top of my head.
The problem as I see it is we as an area seem to emit the message “come here to do this” rather than “this is what we have, what can we do for you”…
Ron, that’s very true and the Indian tribe land deal we talked about earlier is seen as a huge threat to the three Detroit Casinos to the point some of the legislators connected to the Detroit area are pushing against the casino, even they seem to realize there is only a limited dollar pool for gambling in this region.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:27 amTom, if I could wave my magic wand? Boy…would I have fun.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:27 am“this is what we have, what can we do for you”…
Now, that would make a great motto for our signs entering the city.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:38 amOr part of a public marketing campaign…Maybe that’s something I should play with as far as a suggestion…Thanks NC, you gave me a great idea for a project.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:40 amI think a great thing to go in Portside would be a science center for kids. It would get kids interested in technology, and being kids and their parents from outer counties to visit and spend money. It would help Toledo become an even more technologically advanced city because we’re inspiring all these local burgeoning scientists.
Oh, wait!
June 27th, 2008 at 12:15 pmI don’t get Ohio’s stance on gambling. Casinos are bad and illegal in Ohio but the Ohio Lottery and all its games are good?????? I visit casinos. I’ve been to casinos in Michigan, Atlantic City, Niagra Falls and Windsor Canada, Las Vegas, Lake Tahoe and Reno. They were all exciting and full of people. Local eateries and shops were also busy due to the influx of people. The one thing I hate is the smoking. Some had ‘no smoking” floors that didn’t stop people from smoking. With our no smoking law, I’d welcome a casino in Ohio. It’s my choice to spend a few dollars on what entertains me. Why not keep those dollars in our own state. I love resort/casinos. They offer other attractions besides gambling. I think that is what hurt Greektown. They are now building a hotel. I like to gamble a little, take a break and unwind in my hotel room, maybe take a swim. A lot of casinos have excellent restaurants. One of my favorites is Soaring Eagle Casino in Mt. Pleasant, Michigan. The rooms are nice, the pool is amazing, I love the underwater music and the restaurants are worth the trip.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:37 pmI agree that Toledo should focus on the strengths that we already have. I’m surprised that shipping and transportation isn’t a stronger industry around here.
If Portside were to become a casino, would it be owned by the city? Would it be one of those deals where a couple years down the road they would be asking for a levy to support it to “keep jobs in the area”?
Oh… and I know this is mostly unrelated, but I absolutely hate those pro-casino commercials where they get people who used to live in Ohio pushing the casinos. All I can think is “You don’t live here. Why are you trying to tell me what do do?”
June 27th, 2008 at 12:46 pm“Thanks NC, you gave me a great idea for a project. ”
Oh, please, do not give me credit.
It just goes against the illusion that some how a person who wants better for a city is being negative.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:02 pmWell I love to shatter illusions.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:25 pmShatter away, Lisa Renee!
June 27th, 2008 at 9:35 pm“I think a great thing to go in Portside would be a science center for kids.”
Wasn’t there a science museum of sorts already in the downtown area and attendance dropped off year by year as people were not visiting it.
June 28th, 2008 at 7:31 amHas everyone forgotten the perfect place for gambling, the racetracks. Portside is no place for a casino, one, it’s not big enough and two, no parking and three and four and five and………. NO PARKING!
June 29th, 2008 at 6:46 amRight on, Pam, when do we leave for the next trip?
The following is an excerpt from a June 24, 2008 Blade article:
Councilman Lindsay Webb yesterday said the city-owned building is not the right place for a children’s science museum. “I just wish Governor Strickland would make gambling legal in Ohio and we could put a casino where COSI is,” Ms. Webb said.
June 29th, 2008 at 7:46 am“no parking and three and four and five and………. NO PARKING!”
What about the parking spaces down the street from the former COSI?
Next to the Steam Plant.
People could walk back and forth or have a shuttle, what with so much emphasis on the Maumee River Front projects.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:17 amPeople could probably park at the Vistual Garage across the street from Portside. There is an underground corridor that leads right to the doors of the former COSI.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pmI meant Vistula Garage. LOL!
June 30th, 2008 at 12:47 pmEconomic studies aside, does Toledo really need to be trashier? If so I can think of nothing better than a casino.
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:15 am